Curse

reaper with no name · Jan 26, 2011, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Comparing DwG to SF is like comparing Mending to WoH.

Life Bringing · Jan 26, 2011, 07:52 PM // 19:52

If you want to hit sf, you first need to ask yourself what would be left of the playerbase if it was gone. Would everyone move on, or would the game die? I know I'm just one player, but these days I'm almost too lazy to spend the 15 minutes necessary for fow, let alone 40 if sf didn't exist. You could bring up ursan as an example of people not leaving the game, but remember that the game was much younger and people weren't used to such fast times back then.

Bright Star Shine · Jan 26, 2011, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Comparing DwG to SF is like comparing Mending to WoH.

True, but you cannot deny DwG is an OP skill, it's just OP in dealing damage, they nerfed SF's damage abilities, remember? But that is beside the matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

If you want to hit sf, you first need to ask yourself what would be left of the playerbase if it was gone. Would everyone move on, or would the game die? I know I'm just one player, but these days I'm almost too lazy to spend the 15 minutes necessary for fow, let alone 40 if sf didn't exist. You could bring up ursan as an example of people not leaving the game, but remember that the game was much younger and people weren't used to such fast times back then.

This is the sole argument Anet is maintaining atm I think.. They would lose a big chunk of their playerbase because, 4 or 5 years ago, clearing UW in 2 hours was something to be proud of, but nowadays, with current economical standards and what players are used to, nerfing SF will cause many ppl to say "f*ck it, I ain't spending 2h in UW for a lousy reward and possible fail". And a lot will get bored and just quit while waiting for GW2. The couple of sales that GW1 still provides will stop completely, because new players will find a dead game, all end content abandoned of people and nothing to do..

Tbh, it's live and let live atm.. Just ignore it, and learn the stuff yourself, who knows, you might enjoy it.. And find out it's not all as invincible as you think it is..

jon comgree · Jan 27, 2011, 03:55 AM // 03:55

alright please explain WHY shadowform needs to be nerfed. I mean look at it, 26dmg cap at 16 SHADOW ARTS thus making it an ineffective skill if you are to cast attacks or melee them. Sure you can perma against spells, but can u not do the same with obsidian flesh??? Of course shadowform is good for running; the goal isnt to kill everything in your past, just get past it and kill whats nescassary with 7 other people and move on. This is players knowing how to use the skills given to them to do things quickly and efficiently. Sure they can survive onslaughts but they have heals do they not? Can they not spam EE to heal for around 100hp to each other.

ShadowForm isnt the skill needing a nerf; its shroud of distress.

noone can say shadowform is "overpowered" because the skill itself is only useful for survival.

-Joncom Gree
Dungeon runner & SC'r
Member of [TEGO](i know i need to change my status XD)

Tender Care · Jan 27, 2011, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Basically SF only works with big ranged pulls and not against foes who use self healing skills....It doesn't need to be nerfed, it is already a bad skill for everything that isn't running/SC's

That's all....

The only thing that you can do with SF is completely remove it from the game or do nothing.....

Make another thread: Remove SF from the game to give GW economy a new impulse....

I really wanna see how many ppl got the courage to have SF removed from the game..

WarcryOfTruth · Jan 27, 2011, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by jon comgree

alright please explain WHY shadowform needs to be nerfed. I mean look at it, 26dmg cap at 16 SHADOW ARTS thus making it an ineffective skill if you are to cast attacks or melee them.

What needs to be fixed about this is the fact that the max is 26, but putting up Ebon Battle Standard of Honor, it goes beyond that cap, but not only that, it adds armor ignoring damage to everything you do. Take Sliver Armor, a popular choice for Shadow Form users. At 12 Earth, you are dealing 29 earth damage, in HM you may hit for about 18, I don't really know the specifics. Adding 15 damage to that makes each hit deal 32 damage, with how often Sliver Armor deals damage, that is a significant increase. Basically, my point is, Shadow Form may be fine in its functionality, but fix the broken aspect of being able to break the damage cap from any damage modifier. Each "packet" of damage should cap at 26, no matter what is used to modify damage.

Mia Clemons · Jan 27, 2011, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarcryOfTruth

What needs to be fixed about this is the fact that the max is 26, but putting up Ebon Battle Standard of Honor, it goes beyond that cap, but not only that, it adds armor ignoring damage to everything you do. Take Sliver Armor, a popular choice for Shadow Form users. At 12 Earth, you are dealing 29 earth damage, in HM you may hit for about 18, I don't really know the specifics. Adding 15 damage to that makes each hit deal 32 damage, with how often Sliver Armor deals damage, that is a significant increase. Basically, my point is, Shadow Form may be fine in its functionality, but fix the broken aspect of being able to break the damage cap from any damage modifier. Each "packet" of damage should cap at 26, no matter what is used to modify damage.

or.....change it entirely.
Shadow Form originally prevented all spells and attacks...which led to very fast and exploited Speed clears.
Anet nerfed it so only spells are prevented....still decent SC times and 7 or 8 A/x teams
If i had to make a suggestion, i would keep it maintainable, remove the damage cap, and change the functionality to:
For x...x...x seconds, 50% of all incoming attacks miss and all hostile spells have a 50% chance to fail. Problem solved?

-They are now vulnerable to attacks and spells (enchantment stripping)
-They can now deal their normal damage (or cap it a bit if still OP)

I just dont see Anet nerfing SF too much further

chris12xu · Jan 27, 2011, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarcryOfTruth

What needs to be fixed about this is the fact that the max is 26, but putting up Ebon Battle Standard of Honor, it goes beyond that cap, but not only that, it adds armor ignoring damage to everything you do. Take Sliver Armor, a popular choice for Shadow Form users. At 12 Earth, you are dealing 29 earth damage, in HM you may hit for about 18, I don't really know the specifics. Adding 15 damage to that makes each hit deal 32 damage, with how often Sliver Armor deals damage, that is a significant increase. Basically, my point is, Shadow Form may be fine in its functionality, but fix the broken aspect of being able to break the damage cap from any damage modifier. Each "packet" of damage should cap at 26, no matter what is used to modify damage.

they already fixed that a little ago it is completely imposable to break the damage cap with any type of damage/damage modifiers with the exception of life stealing. If you sf is capped at 26 you can buff your sliver all you want it will never deal more than 26 damage.

WarcryOfTruth · Jan 27, 2011, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris12xu

they already fixed that a little ago it is completely imposable to break the damage cap with any type of damage/damage modifiers with the exception of life stealing. If you sf is capped at 26 you can buff your sliver all you want it will never deal more than 26 damage.

They did?

I don't use it, ever, so I was never aware of that.

Mia, I like your idea, I have tossed an idea around friends that a suitable change could be to prevent attacks and spells, no damage cap, 30 Recharge, but it ends after 2 attacks or spells for every rank in Shadow Arts. Something like that, but your idea is also good

jon comgree · Jan 27, 2011, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tender Care

Basically SF only works with big ranged pulls and not against foes who use self healing skills....It doesn't need to be nerfed, it is already a bad skill for everything that isn't running/SC's

..

exactly- finally a voice of reason ;p

Tender Care · Jan 28, 2011, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by jon comgree

exactly- finally a voice of reason ;p

actually it's not true 100%, but generally non-human mobs only got 1 or max 2 healing skills, even if their attributes make the healing really strong.

I've been farming groups of wardens these days with my sin and sometimes killing those pesky ritualists is difficult with SF if you don't aggroo at least 2 groups.

If u notice the most SC's SF is only used as protection skill, and cap dmg force you to rely on AoE spells, conditions etc......

I guess all this polemic comes from the UW sc....the ever-elite area that anybody want to beat!

Bright Star Shine · Jan 28, 2011, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarcryOfTruth

What needs to be fixed about this is the fact that the max is 26, but putting up Ebon Battle Standard of Honor, it goes beyond that cap, but not only that, it adds armor ignoring damage to everything you do. Take Sliver Armor, a popular choice for Shadow Form users. At 12 Earth, you are dealing 29 earth damage, in HM you may hit for about 18, I don't really know the specifics. Adding 15 damage to that makes each hit deal 32 damage, with how often Sliver Armor deals damage, that is a significant increase. Basically, my point is, Shadow Form may be fine in its functionality, but fix the broken aspect of being able to break the damage cap from any damage modifier. Each "packet" of damage should cap at 26, no matter what is used to modify damage.

Just for your interest, if you need to sliver shit, you use an ele, period. 16 (or 17) earth magic, + EBSoH + BuH (+ Intensity?)= easily 50-65 damage per sliver, depending on armor of the foe. With intensity it's 70-80.. So, eles are way superior to perma's in that case. The only problem with ele tanks is: they are way less mobile. They usually need to be /Me for mantra of earth and stoneflesh recasts make them have to stop walking every couple seconds, and the most important part of an assassin: they have shadowsteps. Srry to say, but if there is 1 thing in this game that is f*cking awesome in the full meaning of the word, it's shadowsteps. It's used in our DoA runs to do some funky shit in trenches, when bodyblocked, you can jump out, you can jump in the middle of a mob etc etc...

Ssins are good at balling shit up, tanking it (with bonds or not) and waiting for a spike. Tank and spank. They can be used to sliver things, and do dungeons, but they aren't as effective as they think they are.. An ele would be a lot stronger, it's just less utile..

Spiritz · Jan 28, 2011, 02:37 PM // 14:37

I recall when sf was nerf changed to its current use and for a brief while the obby flesh eles actually took over.Yes with obby ele its a case of walk/stop/walk/stop every time you cast an enchant - try doing vaetires on obby ele then comparing with a few runs on a sin and tho the differnce in time is from the skills the sins a lot faster at balling the mobs and moving - easier to ball the 2 mobs on sin and ele it seems to take ages.

I remember when it was a case of sin hate just because of sf and now its just sf hate even tho the skills not as good as it was.Even with its buggy nature - noticed on mo/a with a reverse of a/mo build strangely my monk took weird damage at start yet on me/a and a/me or a/me that damage never happens and i had to constantly on me/a cast dp/sf and 2 enchants to stop the dmg ( old bug thats already known ).

Take into account that also sins were able to perma sf a huge chunk of gw and had a serious amount of farms and upon the sf change probably 75% of those farms died - now you tell me that sf is still op after losing that amount of farms.Sf is basically a longer version of spellbreaker and i dont see ppl complaining that spellbreakers op even when it can be echo`d to be perma.

NerfHerder · Jan 28, 2011, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiritz

- now you tell me that sf is still op after losing that amount of farms. Sf is basically a longer version of spellbreaker and i dont see ppl complaining that spellbreakers op even when it can be echo`d to be perma.

Spell breaker requires Blessed Aura, Arcane Echo, and an enchantment mod to be perma'd. Oh, and good luck trying to time it before SB ends and the SB wears off of the echo you just made(no time indicator) while your trying to farm.

And yes it is still overpowered. Hey, I use SF all the time myself. I mean how else was I going to max my titles? You want me to rely on other players to keep me alive? And play with balanced teams that require tact and situational awareness? pff

But, I'm not going to lie or live in denial so much to say it deserves its place in GW and there are plenty of other skills that can do the same thing. And by plenty I mean two subpar skills that dont even come close.

Tender Care · Jan 28, 2011, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

Spell breaker requires Blessed Aura, Arcane Echo, and an enchantment mod to be perma'd. Oh, and good luck trying to time it before SB ends and the SB wears off of the echo you just made(no time indicator) while your trying to farm.

And yes it is still overpowered. Hey, I use SF all the time myself. I mean how else was I going to max my titles? You want me to rely on other players to keep me alive? And play with balanced teams that require tact and situational awareness? pff

But, I'm not going to lie or live in denial so much to say it deserves its place in GW and there are plenty of other skills that can do the same thing. And by plenty I mean two subpar skills that dont even come close.

I find my imbagon setup much more useful to max my titles.....You can do everything with h/h....

SF is just used for SC's and running. You can do few farms with it, but still it's not OP. Obsidian Flesh is way much more better for the same farms you can do with SF.

I say again: remove it completely from GW or just keep it with no others nerf, or it will be another useless assassin elite skill.

Cuilan · Jan 28, 2011, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Well it doesn't have to be nerfed to be useless. It can be nerfed to where it's more fair or given some other role/ability. End game is pretty important and elite area/dungeons are apart of that. Don't try to push speed clears as something small.

NerfHerder · Jan 29, 2011, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tender Care

I find my imbagon setup much more useful to max my titles.....You can do everything with h/h....

Well of course, the Imbagon is used for SC's..... all the time?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tender Care

SF is just used for SC's and running. You can do few farms with it, but still it's not OP. Obsidian Flesh is way much more better for the same farms you can do with SF.

How many SC's/Farms require or even involve OF? Comparing SF to OF is a really weak arguement.

Besides the "Yes SF is OP" and "No it's not" arguement, it would be nice to hear more possible changes to SF that could make it balanced when compared to Obsidian Flesh and Spell Breaker.

Or, I can reverse my arguement. Obsidian Flesh and Spell Breaker should be buffed to Shadow Form status! Every profession should get an Invincibuild! Sounds silly doesn't it?

Otherwise, please provide empirical data that shows SF is equal to OF and SB. And show that all professions are equally balanced in this manner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tender Care

I say again: remove it completely from GW or just keep it with no others nerf, or it will be another useless assassin elite skill.

Well, you are a Paragon. So you do know about useless Elites. But, I'll let you in on a secret. All professions have useless elites. Even w/o SF, the Assassin still has plenty of powerful elites to work with, and still fill several niches. Unlike the Paragon, thats a different thread.

Tender Care · Jan 29, 2011, 10:59 AM // 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

Well of course, the Imbagon is used for SC's..... all the time?

How many SC's/Farms require or even involve OF? Comparing SF to OF is a really weak arguement.

Besides the "Yes SF is OP" and "No it's not" arguement, it would be nice to hear more possible changes to SF that could make it balanced when compared to Obsidian Flesh and Spell Breaker.

Or, I can reverse my arguement. Obsidian Flesh and Spell Breaker should be buffed to Shadow Form status! Every profession should get an Invincibuild! Sounds silly doesn't it?

Otherwise, please provide empirical data that shows SF is equal to OF and SB. And show that all professions are equally balanced in this manner.

Well, you are a Paragon. So you do know about useless Elites. But, I'll let you in on a secret. All professions have useless elites. Even w/o SF, the Assassin still has plenty of powerful elites to work with, and still fill several niches. Unlike the Paragon, thats a different thread.

I know every profession got his useless elites...i know that Obsi Flesh is different from SF, infact i just said that i use OF to farm some spots, just not to have the dmg cap. But use SF to chest run and do (like once a month) some SC when i need money.

Comparing SF to OF or Spell Breaker.....Sb is on Divine Favour, making it impossible to use for non-monks. OF you cannot attack, have -2 nrg regen and costs 25.

They are just different skills, you are just talking about general spellbreakers. You just find SF too easy to be permaed, and it's true. But still, the dmg cap makes it impossible to be invincible + remember that in HM mobs still can hit you for a bunch of dmg and the proof is that many ppl still die in SC.

And again: there are no invincibuilds and it's good that only few professions got a sort of dmg prevention like terra tank builds, SF and SB tank.

I agree with you, not every profession should have his cool
do-everything-by-urself skill. But it seems you are just crying for the possibilities that running SF gives to assassins and not to other players.

I find much more unjust that only 3 professions got hex removal. That should be a must-do update!

i repeat: there are no invincibuilds. there are just few skills combinations that allow a single player to play some areas without help. You should then nerf SoS, Save Yourself (even if i love it, i find it really OP), Glaive, Panic (zomg..10sec mass interruption wtf *__*)...let's talk about the madness of this skills...MoP builds, really wtf....

Bright Star Shine · Jan 29, 2011, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

How many SC's/Farms require or even involve OF? Comparing SF to OF is a really weak argument.

Besides the "Yes SF is OP" and "No it's not" arguement, it would be nice to hear more possible changes to SF that could make it balanced when compared to Obsidian Flesh and Spell Breaker.

Or, I can reverse my arguement. Obsidian Flesh and Spell Breaker should be buffed to Shadow Form status! Every profession should get an Invincibuild! Sounds silly doesn't it?

Otherwise, please provide empirical data that shows SF is equal to OF and SB. And show that all professions are equally balanced in this manner.

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/2165/gw397.jpg

Omg, look howmany ssins are used there.. Oh wait..

Anyway, it's been proven time and again that Rangers and eles are in fact WAY more powerful to do SC's than ssins. Rangers use SF nonetheless, and Eles have OF.

I have to agree that OF got seriously bummf*cked and that its new description is bad imo, but it's quite a viable choice. If you know what you're doing, you can use it, but it is indeed inferior to SF, if you want to run to places. OF is in fact seriously more powerful than SF for farming, because you don't need to attack, you never had to, so that part of OF is just a gimmick imo. SF is stronger to run to places, and with bonds, tank shit. Or, with the right experience and skills, tank shit without bonds. Still trying to convince me that SF is too powerful? It has its own uses, but in comparison to it's counterpart(s) it's still bad.

SB is indeed a bad counterpart, because it has such high energy cost, but it's easy to keep up: 16 DF + conset = 17 DF -> 19sec SB, Blessed Aura makes it last 31,464 seconds, Conset makes 45 seconds 36secs, Throw in a glyph on swiftness and you got perma SB.. And the immense upside from SB is: spells fail AFTER being cast, as such the energy is lost, and this can be used against the mobs with correct gameplay. So, OF and SB aren't the best viable options, but are still viable options:

As Mo/E, put some in Earth magic and prot prayers, and you're an invincible tank with prot spirit and Stoneflesh.

Still wanna convince me?

Haggis of Doom · Jan 29, 2011, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Still wanna convince me?

Tank 'n spank call for bad game mechanics.

Before people start flaming, yes I do consider SCs and farming bad for this game just like any other